Each way betting

falbrav4ever · Each way betting

Afternoon all,

I know that we have discussed this topic before, but I'd be really interested to get some detailed thoughts from people about the way in which they bet.

I know that Yaiyam is a dedicated place punter and that the Judge likes an each way double.

Up until my emigration, I would have been a dedicated win only punter...in two days of Royal Ascot 2007, I had a big win only bet on a 25-1 shot that won followed by an even bigger win only bet on a 25-1 shot that got beaten in a photo.

I remember saying at the time that I was much better off from backing them both win only than I would have been in having a couple of each way wagers.

I'm still erring towards believing that win only at most prices will ultimately yield the best aggregate returns...albeit that you will have some very big pay days but go weeks at a time without winning.

However, I'm obliged to bet much more carefully these days (as a rule).

I backed 11 horses on Saturday and didn't have a winner and was urprised to discover that I'd made a small profit.

I had a large each way bet on Cat Junior at 16-1 (and Stan james did not levy a 5p rule 4 - cheers guys!) a medium-sized each way bet on Yes Sir at 20-1 and a small each way bet on Finjaan at 20-1.

Nice prices but the concept of the place money covering my other losses never even occurred to me.

Of course, I'd have been in a really good position if I'd backed all 11 horses place only, but that really seems to take the pleasure out of it.

At the other extreme, I no longer feel sufficiently flush to go weeks without a positive return, so I can't play the win only game anymore.

Does anybody out there regularly back each way at odds of 5-1?

Do you really think that this strategy works long term or does it just provide a beguiling flow of regular money?

I'm genuinely interested to read all thoughts about what people think the best way to make a profit is.

Cheers,
Falbrav

Tagalie

I bet e-w regularly- a combination of not being confident enough to back win only, and knowing I'd be annoyed if a place only horse won. I find horses place regularly enough for me to get my stake back which, when at the track, feels like a bonus when you have allocated yourself so much per race during the day.

If there is a horse at a larger price that I quietly fancy, I like to stick it in an e-w Lucky 15 with shorter priced ones that I think are more likely winners, often around the 4-1 mark.

penleguin

I've got a sort of system that's done well for me over the years, problem is the right conditions don't happen very often and I lose discipline and bet on other things. No doubt it can be adapted but this is the way I do it:

- group and listed weight for age races only
- field ideally should be 8, can have a risk with non-runners and I reckon 9 is OK too
- then simply look for a horse I'm certain will be in the top 3 at a price of 4/1 or more and back it each way

High percentage of the time the horse IS in the top 3, if is placed I'm usually covering my stake at least, if it wins - nice profit.

BRETT

personall im not a fan of e.w betting on single bets.you either think it will win or will place so dont see the point in both bets rolled into 1 but ive heard of punters always betting e.w on prices that give them at least evs for the place.Each to their own but not my cup of tea.

What i have learned is that e.w doubles and upwards are the worst bets in the world.Got caught a few months ago when i did 3x£5 doubles and a £5 e.w treble.first one wins at 8/1,2nd one at 8/1 and the 3rd one was 3rd at 9/1.The e.w treble paid £140 odds but if i had done them as singles and put the winnings on the next horse e.w(£5 e.w @ 8s winner=£60,£30 e.w @ 8s winner=£360,£180 e.w @ 9s placed =£720.)

A huge difference for doing the same bet differently

Hampton

I've always backed E/W where it's right to do so. That's mainly in handicaps paying 1 quarter the odds. At 1 fifth it's not worth it & as that applies to most group & listed races I rarely go E/W.

For a start you get more back if it wins as it's win & place.

Also if you back a 20/1 E/W & it gets placed at least you may of covered your outlay.

E/W betting is very much the way to go in a very big handicap numbers wise i.e. 20 or more runners as they will pay on the 4th.

jennywales

Hi Falbrav and others! Interesting thread, and I will contribute my widow's mite to it in due course, but we now have a brand-new separate forum called "Betfair - Bookmakers - Betting Help", and I'm going to move this thread there.

I'll leave a shadow so that people know where it's gone!

YAIYAM

I'm genuinely interested to read all thoughts about what people think the best way to make a profit is.

The trouble is Falbrav you have asked this question at the end but halfway through have wrote down this

Of course, I'd have been in a really good position if I'd backed all 11 horses place only, but that really seems to take the pleasure out of it.

so on Saturday you actually know which way would have given you the most profit but maybe would not want to go down this route because although you want to show profit regularly you do not want to take the fun or pleasure away from betting itself.

If you are asking the question should you bet eachway online then i would say definately NO apart from the one scenario where you get 1/4 first 5 on some of the bigger handicaps.
In this day and age with what is available and if you are betting ONLINE then win & place is the only way to bet to show the best profits as no one can argue that having an £10 eachway 50/50 bet at 20/1 1/4 odds a place with a bookmaker that may give you 2 possible returns of £270 or £60 is better than having £6 win @ 34.0 & £14 Place 7.0 with returns of £302 or £98.

You do have times where a place price on betfair will be as high as 75% of the actual price of the horse with a bookmaker and i would say to anyone who still takes that bookmaker price to win over that 75% of the price for it to be placed should give up gambling now.

Of course all what i have said does not really apply to people who just bet for fun, someone like tagalie who goes to the races then an E/W bet is probably the best bet to do but there are lots of people who say they bet for fun and back odds on and i say that these people are not actually betting for fun they are actually betting to try and win money and just use the fun word because they are not actually very good at gambling

jennywales

I am such a modest punter, relatively speaking, that this question has small relevance. However, I took a leaf out of Yaiyam's book and started to bet place only last season, fairly consistently. I agree that you get a bit back (enough to cover your bet plus possibly a tiny bit, depending on the odds) more consistently than you might if you bet win only. Betting place only in this way might give you a false sense of security, in that you are fairly often getting something back from your betting, and you might be deluded into (wishful) thinking that you are losing less than you actually are.

However, if you keep a good eye on/record of all your betting, it will soon appear that place only betting will give you modest returns and, unless you are absolutely hopeless at punting, will at the very least cover your bets most of the time as long as they are small.

It is when the amounts themselves rise that there may be a problem. In that although the returns to a place only remain the same, it may psychologically seem a waste if you are doing bigger bets for places, when you might divide the stake and bet each way - particularly on runners whose odds are sufficiently large that a place will cover your bet if it doesn't win, and if it does win you will make a decent profit.

I very rarely back win only, because I am risk averse and don't want to do all my money on some so-called favourite. But there are issues of personalities here - I am the sort of punter who likes to see small amounts rolling into the account (or at least, sufficient so as not to have to top the account up), and I am too impatient to wait for the big return. I like to tick over, simple as that.

But others may have quite a different perspective, and I suppose in the end it's all down to what style of betting you prefer and think does best for you over a period of time.

RightJudgeIam

I regularly backed 5/2, 11/4 and 3/1 shots each way as I have explained often.

To do this you have to be as near as certain that the horse will at least place.
This allows me to have a much bigger bet than I would win only as there is an expectation of getting 60%+ of my stake back. This is only possible however if you have a good idea of the long term strike rate (of the place part of the bet) and is why I always say to people who ask me how to improve their punting to record all their bets and as much info about each bet as possible.

For me it's about perceived value by which I mean if you were to have, say, £10 ew a 3/1 shot, 1/5th the odds the possible outcomes would be:

horse wins: return £56 profit £36

horse places: return £16 loss £4

Effectively you are risking £4 to win £36 which is 9/1

Of course, the horse could also be unplaced but then you would get zero return whether you backed it win only or each way. The question is, does the number of times you get a return from the each way part of the bet cover the extra profit you get if you back the horse win only? Well, that is a hard question to answer because it depends on strike rates for win, place and unplaced and is another reason to record bets so that you can start to answer whether it would have been better to back each way or win only.

As Falbrav backs a lot of big priced outsiders it may well be better to back them win only, especially if a lot of them are unplaced, as you win more when you land on a winner. Again you would need a record of all selections to really work that out.

Hope this helps

Owl of Minerva

My betting patterns have evolved quite significantly recently. Like Yaiyam I am now a big believer in place betting. I really believe that it rewards the best/skilled form analysts and reduces the need to rely on luck etc.

I still sometimes do win only or e/w bets if the circumstances seem to favour it and as YY says I am happy to often go e/w with 5 places (although I would still usually have some more place money (top 4) on as well).

But most of my betting is in big field handicaps (not everyones cup of tea but again I think they are races when the most skilled analysts can benefit most - group races etc. are just 'too obvious' a lot of the time and there are not as many market anomolies to benefit from as in the handicaps) and I definitely think place betting is usually the way to go in these.

When you back a 20/1 horse place only at say 5/1 and then it wins a lot of people on here seem to find this hard to take and say things like "I bet you're gutted you didn't do the win" - I use to think like this too but now I really don't see it like this and it would never cross my mind to get angry about not backing the 'win' part. I think this is a significant improvement in my gambling technique/mentality on my part; being able to bet confidently with convinction before the race and not regret anything with hindsight (i.e; not being a greedy "if only" punter) is key to succesful punting imo - and place only betting definitely requires this

Andy

I'm not really a big punter but as a rule I will back e/w if the horse is double figures and win-only if the horse is 9/1 or less. There are exceptions to this rule though i.e. if my 7/1 selection is up against a short-priced/odds-on fav that looks unlikely to be beaten then I would go e/w. I never go e/w if the e/w part of the bet won't cover my losses on the win bet (as in Judge's example) because it's not really worth doing at my smallish stakes. I can see why you would though if you are putting big sums of money down.

Has anyone heard of Insurebet? It's something I found on the PaddyPower website about a month ago (other bookies may do it but i'm not sure) and it's basically an alternative to e/w or place betting. The basic principle is that you back a horse win-only and if the horse finishes 2nd, or in some cases third, you get your stake back. The catch is that you have to back at contracted odds as in the following example:

Last week I backed a horse with the following odds:
Win - 7/1
Insurebet 2 places (money back if it finishes 2nd) - 6/1
Insurebet 3 places (money back if it finishes 2nd or 3rd) - 5/1

There were quite a few runners and I wasn't that confident so I took the Insurebet 3 places at 5/1. I sacrificed the 7/1 but the horse came third and I got my stake back. This has happened a few times over the last few weeks and although it has cost me a few quid on the horses that have won, it has saved me more by refunding my losing bets. I think it offers an interesting alternative to e/w betting where prices are quite short.

accajacca

YAIYAM

I do not do them myself but i would think E/W doubles to make long term profits are really for the small prices rather than the more speculative bets as i can see by doing two 3/1, 1/4 the odds horses you are having a 1/2 winner just for them both being placed

Owl of Minerva

RightJudgeIam

BRETT

YAIYAM

RightJudgeIam

spot on YY

in fact I will often bet two hot favs in this way as it represents better value than the two single bets done win only.

Of course, the actual odds for the double are only 3.97/1 for the original stake of £20... the value though is that you should return 80% of your money on most occasions

accajacca

RightJudgeIam

the typical situation where I would use the above strategy would be something like:

two maiden races for 2yos or 3yos where the fav is a clear standout on form shown so far but each are facing unraced or unexposed runners representing top stables. The expectation being that both favs will be hard to beat and almost impossible to keep out of the frame.

In that situation the 6/4 available is unappealing as a win single bet (because of the unknown strength of the opposition) and the ew double makes perfect sense because the expectation is to return most of the money.

BRETT