Owl of Minerva
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Yawn . . .Is it just me or is this forum increasingly dumbed down these days?
Every thread on Off Topic is about stupid stuff like least favoruite whatever, songs with the word 'the' in it etc. Every time there is a thread about something mildly interesting it dies a death almost instantly with very few people seemingly interested. And even if an interesting debate does start a certain mod soon comes in and threatens to lock it
Even the horse racing forum is boring as hell these days too - never any proper discussion any more.
I've felt like this forum has been dying for a few months now. Agree? Disagree?
Owl
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Papa 3
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It would seem that we need a “Serious Subjects Only” thread, and anyone abusing the subjects raised, with trivia and frivolity is given a week ban from the forum. We have an Off Topic section for trivia and fun and whatever turns you on type subjects, it is popular, but it is what it says on the tin. Horse racing and football are threads that I don’t frequent too much because I have little interest in the serious side of those subjects and cannot contribute informed information, so I therefore mark those forums as read along with other sections that I cannot enhance. Basically, cherry pick your subjects and the “dumbing” down of the forum will never give you concern. Sorry Owl, but those are just opinions, which is what the forum is all about.
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accajacca
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Re: Yawn . . . | Owl of Minerva wrote: | Is it just me or is this forum increasingly dumbed down these days?
Every thread on Off Topic is about stupid stuff like least favoruite whatever, songs with the word 'the' in it etc. Every time there is a thread about something mildly interesting it dies a death almost instantly with very few people seemingly interested. And even if an interesting debate does start a certain mod soon comes in and threatens to lock it
Even the horse racing forum is boring as hell these days too - never any proper discussion any more.
I've felt like this forum has been dying for a few months now. Agree? Disagree?
Owl |
Agree.
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alansouthcoast
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The problem with off topic is it does exactly what it says on the tin. It is impossible for us to stop the nonsense threads, without being accussed of being the thought police. Frankly I only read a lot of the dross on off topic as I have to moderate it.
As for the forum dying, it always gets like this at this time of year. More people are on holiday or out enjoying the sunshine. The soccer Forum is stuck between two seasons. Racing midweek is at a lull until the next major meeting.
Maybe the answer is for you to post more Owl 
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alansouthcoast
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Re: Yawn . . . | Owl of Minerva wrote: |
And even if an interesting debate does start a certain mod soon comes in and threatens to lock it
Owl |
Owl, this is not only uncalled for, but bullshit. The thread you are refering to started to get heated, with a mention of someones wife. Mods and Admin have always, and will continue, to try and keep posts and threads within the guidelines. If this doesnt happen, we will then delete either the thread or the whole topic.
I can assure you onoe of us decide what to do with a thread without discussing it first, so the accusation about a certain mod is nothing more than stiring the pot, in my opinion. Something that is also against the guidelines. Try using the BBC Forum of Betfair, neither are operated better than this in, again in my opinion.
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jennywales
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Yes, and I notice David-UK also remarked about the dull as ditchwater daily racing thread - it's only dull as ditchwater (or dishwater for that matter!) if people (David included) don't post on it with interesting/controversial insights (within the guidelines, of course).
If the forum is dull, that's what the members make it......I also agree with Alan that it's a time of year when people will anyway be around less, the quality of midweek Flat racing isn't great, and I also suspect that a majority (maybe not a huge one, but certainly a majority) of posters with views and opinions are more likely to be NH people rather than Flat people - and making an interesting thread out of a mid-week fixture at Worcester in June is going to tax anyones' brains!
As for Off Topic, it is what it says it is - Off Topic and about everything else (I confess that when we had a controversial few episodes a while ago I was all for abolishing it as too likely to stir up trouble.....and now people are complaining about boring threads!)
Basically, within reasonable limits this forum is what the members make it. If you think it's dull the remedy is in your own hands, if you can find it. Or maybe we just have to accept that at certain times of the year things go quiet.
I thought the Royal Ascot sub-forum very interesting and succesful, and although not a real Flat fan read it keenly.
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accajacca
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Re: Yawn . . . | alansouthcoast wrote: | | Owl of Minerva wrote: |
And even if an interesting debate does start a certain mod soon comes in and threatens to lock it
Owl |
Owl, this is not only uncalled for, but bullshit. The thread you are refering to started to get heated, with a mention of someones wife. Mods and Admin have always, and will continue, to try and keep posts and threads within the guidelines. If this doesnt happen, we will then delete either the thread or the whole topic. |
if this refers to is the stock market thread, it is completely laughable.
i know about the markets. i will never know everything. never. but i do know a vast amount more than most people do about how the markets work, and the products that are traded on them. so when people who patantly have no idea about the markets, or me, or anything surrounding the discussion, come onto the thread and slag me off personally, call me arrogant and virtually blame me for causing the credit crunch, you might expect that i would lose my temper. i didn't. i used a very simple, non-offensive analogy to show how ignorant it is to generalise.
i would have thought you would want people who do know what they are talking about contributing to the relevant threads rather than taking one sentece out of many contributions, placing it out of context and blaming it for a thread nearly being locked.
the problem with this forum is the overall low standard of debate. no individual can change this. lochsong's comments on that thread were just ridiculous beyond belief, and yet you single out something i said?! why don't we leave him to do the market commentary alongside the name a song blah blah blah threads and see how it goes!
i love reading posts from tags, mach, owl, LUFC and many others all over the forum, but more and more you have to delve through complete dross to get to them. that is what is kiling the forum.
AJ
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alansouthcoast
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AJ you miss the point entirely. The reason locking the thread was mentioned, was due to dragging someones family into it, thats an inescapable fact. I have been doing this admin job for almost three years, so please accept that we see a pattern of how these threads go downhill and try to avoid that. That is all we were doing and we will continue to operate in the same manner.
We often get made out to be some sort of draconian outfit, let me point out a few facts.
NO one gets a PM about a post that we, collectively, dont feel is deserved.
Several users have been on a final warning, yet we often just send a gentle reminder of that fact when the discussion gets heated. If we were really that bad we could just ban them.
A few users have been banned before, but are posting under other names. Again we could ban them but have given them the benefit of the doubt, so they are still here posting and doing okay.
As for a low standard of debate, who has said we have a standard ? Some people just want to get on here and relax without highbrow debates, others, such as myself will be happy to debate about most topics. If you see a subject you dont like just skip over it.
What gets me is the unjust criticism of someone who has devoted a lot of free time to making this forum what it is. The main aim of all the mods and admin is to stop this place from being like the old BBC forum was.
The only other option is for us to let anything go, and then start banning people when things get out of hand. I am sure none of us, you included, wish for us to take that route.
Edited for typing errors.
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Owl of Minerva
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Re: Yawn . . . | alansouthcoast wrote: | | Owl of Minerva wrote: |
And even if an interesting debate does start a certain mod soon comes in and threatens to lock it
Owl |
Owl, this is not only uncalled for, but bullshit. The thread you are refering to started to get heated, with a mention of someones wife. Mods and Admin have always, and will continue, to try and keep posts and threads within the guidelines. If this doesnt happen, we will then delete either the thread or the whole topic.
I can assure you onoe of us decide what to do with a thread without discussing it first, so the accusation about a certain mod is nothing more than stiring the pot, in my opinion. Something that is also against the guidelines. Try using the BBC Forum of Betfair, neither are operated better than this in, again in my opinion. |
I wasn't referring to a particular thread - and even after what you have just said I'm not entirely sure what thread you are referring to.
The mods generally speaking do a great job but one of them is clearly a problem as they are clearly only interested in contributiing to the 'dumb' threads and whenever a more serious thread gets a bit heated (as they inevitably will from time to time - being serious subjects) they jump in at the first opportunity threatening to lock it, thus sucking all the life out of the debate and basically ending the thread.
It's the pre-emptive warnings that get posted directly onto threads that are the problem - it should be done by PM as doing it on the thread ruins the debate. Mods need to be able to accept feedback and not simply say 'Go and use the BBC/Betfair forum if you don't like it' every time someone is critical. Just because the modding and this forum generally are better than others it doesn't mean it can't be improved.
Maybe this forum has just changed in terms of the personnel it now attracts and the resulting quality of posting. A lot of the more interesting/intelligent posters have gone in the past few months and we are left with a lot more posters who are seemingly only really interested in talking about crap TV and talking about song/film titles with certain words in. I hear what you say about the time of year but I think there's more to it than that - the forum has fundamentally changed (for the worse unfortuantely) imo
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alansouthcoast
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Re: Yawn . . . | Owl of Minerva wrote: |
The mods generally speaking do a great job but one of them is clearly a problem as they are clearly only interested in contributiing to the 'dumb' threads and whenever a more serious thread gets a bit heated (as they inevitably will from time to time - being serious subjects) they jump in at the first opportunity threatening to lock it, thus sucking all the life out of the debate and basically ending the thread.
It's the pre-emptive warnings that get posted directly onto threads that are the problem - it should be done by PM as doing it on the thread ruins the debate. Mods need to be able to accept feedback and not simply say 'Go and use the BBC/Betfair forum if you don't like it' every time someone is critical. Just because the modding and this forum generally are better than others it doesn't mean it can't be improved.
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Owl, you miss the point completely. We, as mods and admin, can choose to post on any topic we wish, dumb or not. When it comes to moderating, we all follow the guidelines at the top of the page. Not only that but we also ask for second opinions on the moderator forum. I dont see how you make it one mod is a problem, unless you have a personal issue with them. Anyone who used to be a mod can clarify that we hardly ever take any action without a second opinion. The only time we do this is when the post is blatant and no one else is online to ask.
As for not accepting criticism, well this threads still going isnt it ? We have never deleted a thread on feedback that has been critical of us, not once. If you know of an occassion when we have, please let me know.
As for you own circumstances on here, and the issue of PM`s ect, do you not think we are more than fair ? Do you not recall all the Pms with a friendly, tone it down a bit please, written in them ? We could just have said okay enough is enough, we have never done that, and always tried to see both dies in an argument. Frankly your stance perplexes me, as I feel we bend over backwards not to end up banning people.
Edited to fix quotes.
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Owl of Minerva
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Re: Yawn . . . | alansouthcoast wrote: | Frankly your stance perplexes me, as I feel we bend over backwards not to end up banning people.
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My 'stance' is bound to perplex you if you twist what I am saying
Most of your last post is of little relevance to what I have actually said.
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alansouthcoast
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Owl I havent twisted anything. You have said that one mod pre empts trouble with a warning to lock the thread. I have said that isnt the case, all decisions to lock thread or send PMs ect ect are taken collectively. Singling out just one of us is wide of the mark. If there is any blame to be had, then we all share it.
The above said, it still doesnt alter the fact that we only take action if and when we feel the guidelines are broken.
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Owl of Minerva
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Re: Yawn . . . | alansouthcoast wrote: | Owl, you miss the point completely. We, as mods and admin, can choose to post on any topic we wish, dumb or not. I never said you couldn't When it comes to moderating, we all follow the guidelines at the top of the page. Not only that but we also ask for second opinions on the moderator forum. I dont see how you make it one mod is a problem, unless you have a personal issue with them. No personal issue, just think the mod in question is over zealous and likes to stick their nose in at the earliest opportunity Anyone who used to be a mod can clarify that we hardly ever take any action without a second opinion. The only time we do this is when the post is blatant and no one else is online to ask.
As for not accepting criticism, well this threads still going isnt it ? Yes it is We have never deleted a thread on feedback that has been critical of us, not once. No you haven't If you know of an occassion when we have, please let me know. I don't know of one. When did I say you had? But just because you let threads stay it doesn't mean you are taking on board the feedback
As for you own circumstances on here, and the issue of PM`s ect, do you not think we are more than fair ? Do you not recall all the Pms with a friendly, tone it down a bit please, written in them ? Yes they are. Why did I say otherwise? I said more PMs are needed, not less We could just have said okay enough is enough, we have never done that, and always tried to see both dies in an argument. Frankly your stance perplexes me, as I feel we bend over backwards not to end up banning people. When did banning people come into this?
Edited to fix quotes. |
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alansouthcoast
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Owl I will take the paragraphs one at a time.
You posted that the mod concerned only seems interestind in posting on dumb thread. What has that got to do with how the board is moderated ?
You dont think we are taking criticism on board. I wish i could show you the number of discussions we have had on how we do/should operate. Sadly much of out input in this matter is hardly noticed, as its on our own forum
Your point about the PMs overlooks that we send pms and dont just ban people. We threaten to lock threads as often it would mean sending half a dozen pm`s.
You asked when bannings came into this. That is the whole point of us taking pre emptive action. So we dont have to ban anyone.
Finally, thanks for keeping this cordial.
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geordie_racer
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shame this is being coducted so politely.... thought the board was livening up 
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alansouthcoast
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| geordie_racer wrote: | | shame this is being coducted so politely.... thought the board was livening up |
Its a big boys dispute. Who do you think we are, Joey Barton 
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FallonFacta
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Re: Yawn . . . | Owl of Minerva wrote: | | The mods generally speaking do a great job but one of them is clearly a problem as they are clearly only interested in contributiing to the 'dumb' threads and whenever a more serious thread gets a bit heated (as they inevitably will from time to time - being serious subjects) they jump in at the first opportunity threatening to lock it, thus sucking all the life out of the debate and basically ending the thread. |
Sorry but I like the dumber threads - the serious threads on Off Topic don't interest me most of the time and the serious threads on racing generally cost me money! (Ante post and seeing the good sides of way too many horses)
You're right that posting on a thread is not the best way to moderate. The main reason I do it is because when there's more than one person getting involved in something we believe needs modding it's difficult to start composing and send different PM's. By the time you've sent the last PM you have a reply to the first and the thread's carrying on. If we move the thread to the mods board to take a look at it and try calm things down we get a post on feedback saying "Where's the thread?"
I'll try and reply to anything you want to criticise me of and next time I'll try to PM rather than get involved on the board.
A couple of suggestions/thoughts that might or might not work...
1. Should we split Off Topic into serious/non-serious? Or any other titles anyone can think of
2. Is the "Members Bets" forum working? Is it taking away from the daily threads?
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alansouthcoast
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I think a section for serious topics isnt a bad idea. That way people can chose to read the less serious thread or not.
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Rochesterlad
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Re: Yawn . . . | FallonFacta wrote: |
2. Is the "Members Bets" forum working? |
For me no not really.
Just a daily thread seems fine and worked well. Tips and bets all in one.
Anyway i never remember to visit the members bets forum!
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Papa 3
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| alansouthcoast wrote: | | I think a section for serious topics isn't a bad idea. That way people can chose to read the less serious thread or not. |
Until more than a couple of people moan about the Off Topic leave well enough alone IMO. The Off Topic is what it is and doesn't need bulking up, we will be having topics for different days of the week next, every forumite isn't using this forum to change the world, just comment on it in whatever fashion they choose, within reason, that is why we have mods to moderate. I feel that, like the quiz, there are too many specialist subjects that I don't feel able to contribute to in a competent manner, so I have a guess, and when I see answers I learn. Love the quiz, love the forum, both make my day pass by as quickly as I want. 
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geordie_racer
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In the new found spirit of entente cordial (and after he agreed with me on the quiz today) I agree with papa on this
Don't split the off topic thread; people can see from the title (and, usually, the author) what type of thread it is and can choose to join n or not
On the racing page I think the members bets bit takes away from the daily thread insofar as it relates to daily racing info. If it is 9s i thought it was) designed to dealwith people doing "2 bets a day to make a million pounds by christmas" type stuff or match bets thats fine, but day to day bettig plans and info should IMHO be on the daily thread, but thats just my view.
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theGoingStick
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Re: Yawn . . . | FallonFacta wrote: | | 1. Should we split Off Topic into serious/non-serious? Or any other titles anyone can think of |
I personally don't think we need this, it isn't like thousands of threads are being created every day and the titles seem to be descriptive enough to give you some indication that a thread is meant to be a fun/game type of thread.
| FallonFacta wrote: | | 2. Is the "Members Bets" forum working? Is it taking away from the daily threads? |
The members bets forum has definately taken away from the daily racing thread and I can't see any significant difference between that forum and the articles forum.
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Papa 3
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The best thing out of all this.
Me and Geordie.
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geordie_racer
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by th way thats me on the left.
obviously.
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Papa 3
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Before someone gets jealous.
P.S. Hope I haven't dumbed this down too much, (steps back and waits)
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Machiavellian
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The members bets forum is shit
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Owl of Minerva
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| Machiavellian wrote: | | The members bets forum is shit |
Agree. It's pretty pointless really - there's the daily racing threads which are just fine and if people really want their own article then there is the articles section for that
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FallonFacta
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I think that's 5 negative votes for the Members Bets forum (add my vote makes 6) which is about as many votes as we ever get on here so we'll work out where to put the threads this weekend.
Thanks for the feedback - very subtle Mach 
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Machiavellian
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I didn't want to be too blunt
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alansouthcoast
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| Machiavellian wrote: | | I didn't want to be too blunt |
So I noticed. 
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Machiavellian
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In all seriousness, I feel the members bets section has everything the daily bets threads used to have without the facility for the discussion and the banter that the old style allows.
If people want an article and a running total etc then the articles section surely is just the job?
Feel free to tell me to mind my own but here's my two penneth
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value seeker
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| Machiavellian wrote: | | The members bets forum is shit |
Disagree it has given me the chance to pit my wits against others and the results have shown as it has made me more competitive.
Problem is when a few losers creep in people lose heart and stop posting.
The idea is to not chase losses, the nina post has done well also.
I left the forum for a long spell because of the stick i took when putting movers up ,some said the prices were wrong and my information was incorrect.
Now I have a thread on exactly the same thing which I left for ,its showing approx a 40 point profit and has had over 2k hits.
Someone out there must think its ok 
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Owl of Minerva
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I'm sure admin will be happy for you to keep it going in the articles section if you want to VS
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FallonFacta
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| value seeker wrote: | | Machiavellian wrote: | | The members bets forum is shit |
Disagree it has given me the chance to pit my wits against others and the results have shown as it has made me more competitive.
Problem is when a few losers creep in people lose heart and stop posting.
The idea is to not chase losses, the nina post has done well also.
I left the forum for a long spell because of the stick i took when putting movers up ,some said the prices were wrong and my information was incorrect.
Now I have a thread on exactly the same thing which I left for ,its showing approx a 40 point profit and has had over 2k hits.
Someone out there must think its ok |
I agree with the others mainly because reading a list of bets when there's no good reason given for betting is not especially entertaining - and if there's no good reasoning no one will ever follow and chances are they won't even take notice.
Sorry VS but the Members Bets forum won't be around for long unless we get loads of posters wanting it to stay. Maybe a move to Articles or the general Racing Forum - to be confirmed.
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Machiavellian
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Raise it to the ground!
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alansouthcoast
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| Machiavellian wrote: | | Raise it to the ground! |
Its hardly Cardiff is it
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Machiavellian
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| alansouthcoast wrote: | | Machiavellian wrote: | | Raise it to the ground! |
Its hardly Cardiff is it |
lol
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Owl of Minerva
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Re: Yawn . . . | FallonFacta wrote: | Sorry but I like the dumber threads - the serious threads on Off Topic don't interest me most of the time and the serious threads on racing generally cost me money! (Ante post and seeing the good sides of way too many horses)
You're right that posting on a thread is not the best way to moderate. The main reason I do it is because when there's more than one person getting involved in something we believe needs modding it's difficult to start composing and send different PM's. By the time you've sent the last PM you have a reply to the first and the thread's carrying on. If we move the thread to the mods board to take a look at it and try calm things down we get a post on feedback saying "Where's the thread?"
I'll try and reply to anything you want to criticise me of and next time I'll try to PM rather than get involved on the board.
A couple of suggestions/thoughts that might or might not work...
1. Should we split Off Topic into serious/non-serious? Or any other titles anyone can think of
2. Is the "Members Bets" forum working? Is it taking away from the daily threads? |
Hi FF
Sorry for not replying to this sooner - just wanted to see what others said first.
Firstly apologies for being a bit rude and talking about posting on 'dumb' threads etc. - really not relevant.
As for moderation, yes I think it will work a lot better if mods can do as much by PM as possible, as warnings on threads often seem to 'end' the momentum of the thread. So thanks for acknowledging this.
As for a separate 'serious' section I think its a good idea. That way Off Topic can be used for the kind of TV, music, film, fun/jokey threads that we currently see a lot of, and we can have another forum maybe entitled 'Current Affairs' where news, issues, politics, economics, finance etc. can be kept separate and hopefully flourish a bit more than they have done of late. After all I don't think fun/jokey threads really 'fit' or 'belong' on the same forum as discussions in such areas as those mentioned above. Be interested to hear a few other forumites views on this
Thanks again for your (non defensive) reply
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FallonFacta
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Re: Yawn . . . | Owl of Minerva wrote: | | As for moderation, yes I think it will work a lot better if mods can do as much by PM as possible, as warnings on threads often seem to 'end' the momentum of the thread. So thanks for acknowledging this. |
Definitly PM more in future - but you may see threads locked temporarily or disappearing for a bit while we make a decision. Most of the time there's more than one mod about and it's easier for us to make joint decisions but it takes longer.
| Owl of Minerva wrote: | | As for a separate 'serious' section I think its a good idea. That way Off Topic can be used for the kind of TV, music, film, fun/jokey threads that we currently see a lot of, and we can have another forum maybe entitled 'Current Affairs' where news, issues, politics, economics, finance etc. can be kept separate and hopefully flourish a bit more than they have done of late. After all I don't think fun/jokey threads really 'fit' or 'belong' on the same forum as discussions in such areas as those mentioned above. Be interested to hear a few other forumites views on this |
I'm undecided on this - I'm also incapable of making a decision before breakfast! We really do need more opinions - Anyone?
You've removed my biggest worry which was calling it Serious Off Topic - Current Affairs sounds so much better!
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Flipando
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Using a contemporary example, Michael Jackson's death would go under the serious news section but would this then mean that the jokes that were put on the current Michael Jackson thread are not allowed? Sure, the off-topic section has its drawbacks but splitting it into two categories is only going to cause more arguments in my opinion.
The members bets sub-forum is, in my opinion, the main reason that the daily racing threads at the moment are so drab. Get rid of it! If anyone is serious about doing their own punting thread then starting an article sounds a good idea. If not, it's not against the realms of possibility that those people could put their "daily selections" into the "daily selections" thread. No?
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Rochesterlad
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| Flipando wrote: | Sure, the off-topic section has its drawbacks but splitting it into two categories is only going to cause more arguments in my opinion.
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Very true
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Rochesterlad
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| Flipando wrote: | | it's not against the realms of possibility that those people could put their "daily selections" into the "daily selections" thread. No? |
Of course you would think so but.......... 
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Machiavellian
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I see the inteligent discussion and debate has returned to off topic. Not before time either imo.
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Owl of Minerva
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If you can't beat em, join em
Songs with the word purple in anyone?!
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FallonFacta
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| Owl of Minerva wrote: | If you can't beat em, join em
Songs with the word purple in anyone?! |
My favouite colour
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lochsong
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accajacca
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the mods, in my opinion have made an error of judgement involving my comments on this thread, and have seemingly ignored my reasons for making them.
as i wrote last night before they decided to remove it, i won't be posting here for the time being as i'm not really enjoying it. i will be popping in from time to time if anyone wants to say hi by pm.
good luck
AJ
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geordie_racer
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lighten up amigo
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alansouthcoast
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| accajacca wrote: | the mods, in my opinion have made an error of judgement involving my comments on this thread, and have seemingly ignored my reasons for making them.
as i wrote last night before they decided to remove it, i won't be posting here for the time being as i'm not really enjoying it. i will be popping in from time to time if anyone wants to say hi by pm.
good luck
AJ |
You had a PM explaining why we did as we did. I would have expected the same courtesy back, instead of a message on an open Forum.
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alansouthcoast
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| lochsong wrote: | |
Count yourself lucky Lochsong. We gave you the benefit of the doubt regards your comment to Acca. You were well out of line, whatever the circumstances.
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lochsong
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I think you got that comment way way out of context - I was talking about Banking - ie Head of Chase Trust etc.
I don't know what you thought I meant.
I sent my repy and apology to admin warning back to Jenny about 2 hours ago.
Thanks
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alansouthcoast
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Ill PM you the comment I mean with an explaination of it.
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jennywales
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| lochsong wrote: | I sent my repy and apology to admin warning back to Jenny about 2 hours ago.
Thanks |
LS, I have just opened it, for which thanks.
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